Giving your victim the option to commit suicide doesn’t justify their victimization.

The general argument for sentiocentric (all sentient life) antinatalism is that suffering is bad, by creating life we cause a certain amount of suffering in all cases, we may also cause pleasure/relief, but you will not miss any of that pleasure/relief if you are never created in the first place, there is no unborn purgatory where anyone is trapped, suffering from a lack of pleasure.

Is the absence of pleasure in and of itself a problem? Think of a planet like mars, there’s no pleasure whatsoever going on there, but there’s also absolutely no suffering from a lack of it going on there, so I fail to see how it could be a legitimate problem.

Or similarly, imagine we had two planets, one filled with tormented, dissatisfied aliens living a life of abject misery, but the other one empty of conscious life. You could either A. Choose to give the miserable ones the resources needed to become satisfied or B. Create a higher number of happy aliens and put them on the empty planet.

I think the absence of pleasure is only a problem in so far as it causes suffering, once you’re here, you have a constant deprivation/desire problem that needs to be mended, fire could be used as a metaphor. By procreating, we give someone the problem of now having to constantly chase pleasure in order to avoid being subjected to suffering (eat or get hungry, drink or thirst, shit or constipate), some desire fires are temporarily extinguished while others are not.

If you wouldn’t accept the idea that a fireman did good by setting people’s houses on fire and extinguishing only some of them, why would you think creating desire and fulfilling only some of it is good? All our lives, we’re trying to suffer as little as possible, when the only way to truly avoid suffering is to not come into life in the first place.

So a question that is common in discussions about this topic is:

”If life is so bad, why don’t you just kill yourself immediately?”

Often implying that there’s some kind of hypocrisy on part of the ones opposing life creation.

And the proper answer to that would be that if everyone who comes to these conclusions just commits suicide, there would be no one to talk about it, simple.

If you are thrown in a war and you are staunchly anti-war, it isn’t necessarily clear that the best move is to shoot yourself in the head, maybe you can convince other soldiers that the war is bad and minimize cruelty along the way, stop them from inflicting rape/torture here and there, maybe you can go home again and write a book about why you disagree with the war you were thrown in, maybe other soldiers can even do the same thing, so on and so forth.

It isn’t necessarily clear that if you disagree with x, you would necessarily free yourself from x immediately, because perhaps by staying in x you have a chance to reduce x, another example would be let’s say I wanted to convince everyone to live in a forest with me without technology.

Perhaps buying a computer and phone and using said technology to argue that point would ultimately further my goal of getting more people to give up technology and live in the forest with me, but then ultimately we’d abandon technology.

(Sentiocentric) antinatalism is against all life propagating, that problem is not stopped by just ending one life. It ends that particular suffering and all potential future suffering, yes, but not all the potential future suffering of all other organisms, so it’s not a solution.

But there’s also another important aspect to this, which is that giving someone the option to kill themselves doesn’t justify imposing harm on them in the first place.

It’s often said with this implication that as long as we all have the option to opt out, that somehow makes life creation a fair game, because you can just opt out at any point.

”Doesn’t matter if some people have a torturous life, there are also many happy lives, and the ones that don’t like it can just kill themselves, fair deal, you can always opt out at any time, so don’t complain!”

The problem with this is that once somebody is planning to commit suicide, they have already been harmed, so unless you believe that it is justifiable to harm someone because they have the option to later on end that harm by committing suicide, you are being logically inconsistent in using this justification for breeding.

I didn’t know I was going to put you in extreme debt by taking your money to the gambling house and losing everything. If you don’t like it, you can kill yourself.

I didn’t know she didn’t want surprise anal sex, if this slut is now traumatized, she can just commit suicide, so what’s the big deal? Some like surprise anal sex.

I drove over your legs when I was drunk and now you’re a cripple, but so what? If you really don’t like it, you can always end it, life is not supposed to be fair.

If it were only bad to harm someone if you deny them the option to commit suicide, then it should not be possible to prosecute a rapist who locked a girl into his basement and raped her every day, as long as he also threw her a rope to hang herself with.

”But your honor, my client gave the girl in his basement a rope to commit suicide with, she didn’t do it, so that proves that she secretly enjoyed getting raped, it was consensual for sure. What’s the objection here?’

”Forcing others to suck your dick at gunpoint is fine because they can just choose to die if they really don’t want to, free the offender!”

”It’s a fair deal, I lock you in my basement and rape you, and if you really don’t like it, you can kill yourself, I put a rope in your room.”

Here many procreation supporters will say that this is an unfair example because you know fully well that people don’t like being abducted into basements and raped, but with creating life it is not as clear that the person will have a horrible experience.

But that’s irrelevant if their excuse for it is that if severe harm takes place, the victim can commit suicide, if harm is justified on the basis that the victim can still commit suicide if they don’t like it, then this point applies.

Furthermore, it of course also exposes another of their double standards, ”you don’t know the outcome beforehand, so that justifies breeding” – so taking a risk like this at someone else’s expense is fine as long as you don’t know the outcome? Isn’t that exactly what we think makes it wrong in almost all other cases? I went to the casino with your money, but that is perfectly fine, because I didn’t know that I was about to lose all of it, it’s only wrong to gamble with someone else’s money if you know the outcome is that you’ll lose, if you don’t know the outcome, it’s fine.

Another problem on top of this is that the ones who are making this brilliant ”you can always kill yourself after we already harmed you” point is that they are also frequently exactly the ones opposing the right to die.

Pro-life ideology/viviocentrism often times doesn’t stop at just being perfectly fine with the reckless creation of consciousness and suffering, many of these pro-lifers don’t want the victim to be able to leave life either after having been severely harmed already, which they base usually on entirely circular reasoning, as in ”you are irrational if you want to leave life, and you want to leave life because you are irrational” – A because B, B because A.

In many places althroughout history and to this day, you can be arrested if someone suspects you are about to commit suicide.

A suicidal person must always think that the game of working to fulfill your needs/wants/desires is worth it even when there are little to no prospects of doing so, you can’t just realize that your needs/wants/desires not being fulfilled wouldn’t be a problem anymore if you’re dead, because you won’t have them anymore so once the desire wound is gone the fulfillment bandaid loses its value, no, we have to re-addict you to life and force you to think that not fulfilling a non-existent need/want/desire is a big problem – stay addicted.

So let’s go back to the rapist metaphor.

It’s not like this rapist locks you in his basement with a rope you could potentially use to kill yourself, you also have to do it when he’s not home, otherwise, he has a little door in his rape dungeon he’ll lock you behind, and then you won’t be released again until you admit how irrational you are for rejecting his cock, his gift to you.

You must admit you don’t want his cock because you’re irrational and you’re irrational because you don’t want his cock (A because B, B because A), but you promise to worship his cock from now on, you admit you are diseased.

And of course, you see that some of his victims also don’t have the same fair chance as others to kill themselves because he amputated them (an analogy to people who are in a position where they have a hard time killing themselves on their own and aren’t being granted the right to assisted suicide), so they can’t just pick up a rope.

They have to plead with him to help them commit suicide, but often he decides that they must still stay here to worship his cock (just like the absolute pro-life religious nutjobs will force someone to live until the end because anything else goes against their idiotic delusional religious beliefs), maybe they’ll get some better painkillers and that’s it.

So this whole argument that ”they can just kill themselves” has lots of problems as we can see.

Antinatalists killing themselves doesn’t solve the overall problem of suffering, even here we can make an analogy to the rape dungeon. If one somehow manages to escape the rape dungeon but comes back to it in order to save the other victims from the rapist, would you say the rapist is right to conclude that this means you secretly want to live in his rape dungeon and are just denying it, otherwise you wouldn’t be coming back to it?

Giving your victim the option to commit suicide doesn’t justify imposing the harm on them, otherwise I might as well also start drunk driving over people’s legs to gambling houses where I lose the money of people I stole from, and then when I lose I angrily rape a bitch, but that’s all good because if they don’t like it they can just jump off a building together.

Some victims are not even in a position where they can easily kill themselves and the most insane pro-lifers still aren’t for allowing them to exit, they wouldn’t even allow a paralyzed patient to die so what’s their point anyway?

In conclusion, the best way to prevent a problem is still to not make it, it’s better if someone never ends up in a position where they have to kill themselves to escape suffering in the first place, and while you are also abstaining from creating happy future people, you have to keep in mind that they are not trapped in some kind of pre-birth deprivation chamber, unborn purgatory where they are horrifically tormented over not receiving life’s pleasures.

Can it be good to create desire?

Can it be a good, productive idea to create desire?

Need, want, desire all roughly mean the same thing. You simply have to do certain things, or you will be forced to experience a certain amount of pain, suffering, discomfort. I suffer if I don’t eat an apple, I am in a state of deprivation, if I ate an apple, this suffering would go away, so it is correct to say that I desire an apple.

If I could theoretically inject desire into someone, e.g. I had desire serum, and if I gave it to someone in their sleep, the next day they will wake up and no longer be able to fall asleep again, unless they stare at a red-painted wall at least once a day and cum inside a purple cupboard, would that be a good idea to inject them with the desire serum?

Or just plain old heroin. Let’s say I just inject someone with heroin in their sleep, make them addicted to it. Is that a good idea, why or why not?

I would argue creating desires is not good. Fulfilling an unfulfilled desire that already exists can be good, similar to how it can be good to put a bandaid on a wound that already exists. If someone rings on your door with a stabwound in their chest, you’re doing good by putting a bandaid on it and giving them a painkiller.

But, you wouldn’t say I’m doing you a favor by deliberately stabbing you, just to afterwards give you a bandaid for the wound that I deliberately created, and similarly I think it is bad to create unfulfilled desires for the good of fulfilling them again.

You desire x, so I prevent your suffering by giving you x. But I can’t do you any good by creating your desire to obtain x, especially if I have no guarantee that you’ll even be able to always obtain x, creating a desire without guarantee of fulfillment would in the analogy then be like giving someone a stabwound without guaranteeing a bandaid.

This is why reproduction of (sentient) life is a problem, because it involves the creation of desires that constantly have to be fulfilled to avoid further suffering.

You cannot reproduce without breaking the do-no-harm principle, and you cannot cite any of the fulfilled desires in life as an upside or advantage for the person that is being born, because they obviously didn’t have any desire for it before you created the desire by creating them. That’s like citing that I’ll put a bandaid on your stabwound as a benefit to justify giving you a stabwound.

So reproduction creates their desire, it doesn’t fulfill a desire the fetus already had before it became conscious. It creates the wound, it is not like putting a bandaid on a wound that already existed.

And even all these metaphors like creating wounds or injecting heroin don’t touch how bad reproduction truly is, because you could at least argue that people that already exist have a desire to have these things done to them in some cases.

For heroin, I could at least argue I could do someone who is already in a state of suffering a favor by making them addicted to heroin, now they get some relief from suffering that they already experienced in their lives, perhaps they were already depressed.

At least I did them a favor much more than I can do someone a favor by reproducing them, because unborn children have absolutely no pre-existing desires whatsoever, they aren’t trapped in some kind of pre-birth deprivation chamber where they desire to come into existence on planet earth, depressed about currently not existing.

Reproduction also involves gambling with more than just one desire, like getting a new heroin fix.

By engaging in reproduction, parents are rolling dice which exact desire will be injected into their future victim via the creation of consciousness, it could be everyday needs, like:

Food, nourishment.
Taste satisfaction.
Shelter.
Resources you’ll to do possibly dissatisfying work for.
Constant entertainment.
Acceptance, reassurance.
Affection.
Sex.

It could be desires that are hard or impossible to fulfill, like:

Staying healthy and simultaneously living an unhealthy lifestyle.
Have more sex than you are able to find partners.
Go back into the past you feel more attached to than the present.
Not decompose and die, although you will inevitably.
Be someone else you are not.

It could be desires that directly necessitate harming someone else, like:

All kinds of sexual problems where you have to hurt others to get off.
Subjugating others to gain a sense of security.

Everyone, including serial rapists and murderers should have our empathy as victims of reckless procreation. How bad would it be if I deliberately injected a serum into someone that made it so that they can never have a fulfilling orgasm again unless they burn a little kitten alive?

Pretty bad, but so is rolling the desire imposition dice by engaging in the reckless production of conscious lifeforms which will all end up suffering from different needs and desires, inevitably leading to the creation of someone like that.

So the procreators of the world create all these desire wounds, and the best thing that could happen is that desire fulfillment bandaids are put on all of them in some kind of weird technological endless orgasm utopia scenario – in which case the victim still isn’t better off than before the wound has been created, they just suffered in between and then the suffering has been alleviated again.

Even if we had the cure for cancer, it would still be stupid to first intentionally give yourself cancer in order to then cure said cancer directly afterwards, it’s still more harm than zero. Similar to how even if had a utopian scenario in which we can fulfill all desires, that still wouldn’t mean it’s a good idea to create desires just to fulfill them directly afterwards, it’s still more harm than zero.

And the pleasure won’t be missed if no one exists, just like the cure for cancer won’t be missed if no cancer exists. So the same question remains, what’s the inherent benefit to creating a problem just for the sake of fixing that problem again?

So even if you just imagined some kind of simplistic organism, let’s say I created some sentient alien slime glob in a laboratory that only had one desire – ingest water, and I always gave it a glass of water just in time before it gets too thirsty, I still can’t do that organism a favor by producing it. It suffered a desire to drink water, and I always gave it a glass of water just in time, so then the suffering went away again.

Is it really doing them a favor if I make it so that they will suffer if they don’t obtain x and then I give them x which they need to avoid the chance of suffering that I created?

And in the worst case, the victim of procreation will fail to fulfill their desires again and suffers a lot more. So the best case scenario is always fulfill your needs/desires just in time…which most of the organisms don’t even do efficiently, tons of unfulfilled needs/desires in the world.

This is also why the idea that children ought to be grateful to their parents for taking care of them is idiotic.

Entitled parents think they are owed some kind of gratitude for first creating a problem by making a conscious organism and then trying to prevent its suffering.

”I fed you and put a roof over your head!”.

Yes, after you created their desire to ingest the food and not freeze to death on the streets. You created their needs, wants, desires, and then you tried to fulfill them again. Seems like a fair deal, not doing so would just be like injecting someone with heroin and then depriving them of it, which would seem like a rather shitty deal.

If I set your house on fire deliberately for the good of trying to extinguish it again, do you have to suck my dick for extinguishing it again? If I deliberately give you a stabwound to do you the great favor of putting a bandaid on it afterwards, do I deserve the nobel prize for altruism for putting a bandaid on the wound I created? If I deliberately shit all over your floor to do you the favor of cleaning it up again, do you have to kiss my ass for cleaning up the mess I made?

No – that is just the minimum requirement. If I create a problem for you, I have to solve it again, and if I didn’t, you would call the police. That’s the only condition under which I may be able to prevent having charges pressed against me – I perfectly extinguish the fire, I perfectly treat the wound, I perfectly wipe my shit off again.

But entitled parents, imposers of desire pride themselves in incompletely fulfilling some of the desires they create and say ”but some parents do nothing for their kids so you owe me gratitude!”, which isn’t much better than saying ”but some people who shit on your floor don’t clean it up again, so therefore, because I cleaned it up again, you should really kiss my ass now!”.

In conclusion, no, I don’t think we can argue creating desires can be in and of itself good. You may argue it fulfills some of the parents desires to create new desires, but ultimately they are always creating new problems, which doesn’t effectively solve the desire problem in the long run.

You could ask ”what if someone has a desire to have a desire, i.e someone wants to be injected with heroin?” – then we might do them a favor temporarily, but the desire we give them is still just an instrument to then alleviating their desire for that desire, and they still weren’t benefitted by having that desire to have that desire.

Conscious lifeforms can do absolutely nothing except to eliminate problems caused by them being conscious. At best they minimize all harms just in time before they get too bad, which they didn’t need to before they were forced into that position, at worst they won’t.

Lack of consent and procreation.

You could argue that by procreating, you’re always harming someone, it’s impossible to procreate without breaking the do-no-harm principle/idea, you put someone into a state of need/want/desire.

Once you are here, as a conscious organism, you’ll be constantly motivated by suffering. You must eat or you get hungry. You must drink or you get thirsty. You must shit or you constipate. You must breathe or you suffocate. You must socialize or you get lonely.

Whatever example you want to use, you must chase pleasure/relief, or you will continue to suffer. If you don’t get the pleasure/relief, then you will suffer more, similar to how if it’s not brighter, then it is darker, or if it is not drier, then it is wetter. Less pleasure/relief, more suffering.

So procreating equals irresponsibly creating an addiction with no guarantee of fulfillment.

There is also a secondary argument against procreation, which is that you cannot get consent from an unborn child to create it.

When is it important to ask for consent?

I think the best answer is whenever you are exposing someone to some kind of risk of future harm, unless of course you are by doing so preventing a greater harm, easy example: shooting Hitler although he didn’t explicitly consent to it.

It is important for me to ask for consent, whenever I have doubts about what I’m going to do for someone else. So for example, if I want to steal your money and go to a gambling house, the only condition under which this could be made acceptable again is if I can 100% guarantee that I’m going to win the gamble or somehow I’m preventing more harm by stealing your money and taking it to the gambling house.

If I already knew you liked money, I can win the billion dollars, you’re not going to object to the end result, then I may proceed without asking you first, I already know the end result is going to be a win.

If I want to give someone surprise anal sex, the condition under which this could be made acceptable is if I can 100% guarantee they’re going to be into it later on. If I definitely knew they would appreciate it, they’re not going to object to the end result – then I may proceed without asking them first, but if there is any shadow of a doubt, I need to ask if it is being consented to first, I must not assume implicit consent without great evidence.

So I wouldn’t say that asking for consent is in itself always important as some kind of sacred rule, ultimately it is still the harm/suffering that matters,but here we have the problem procreation.

When procreators are about to procreate, it is fair to say that they cannot 100% guarantee a win.

The child could get a disease.
The child could be lonely.
The child could become addicted to drugs.
The child could randomly get struck by lightning or hit by a bus, be crippled for life.
The child could die in some unpleasant way one day.
The child could at all be dissatisfied, like I already pointed out at the beginning.

So to procreation, there is risk, that is undeniable, and on top of that, you also couldn’t argue that we’d be worse off if we stopped procreation, I don’t see how greater harm would befall anyone unless you could somehow argue that there’s some kind of unborn purgatory where people are suffering from not existing.

So we need to ask the unborn child for consent first. How do we do that? The answer is, we cannot do that, so what do we do when there is risk of colossal failure and no ability to get consent? We do not proceed, I cannot break into a random girl’s house while she’s asleep and stick my dick in her ass in hopes that she’ll appreciate the surprise anal sex afterwards.

Here reckless procreators frequently have a different idea all of the sudden:

”I can’t ask for consent, so I don’t need to! How am I supposed to get consent from an unborn child you fucking idiot???”.

So that means they don’t get it, the point isn’t that there is an unborn antechamber where you could have contacted the child and asked for consent, the point is that explicitly stated consent becomes an important priority whenever we are exposing someone to a colossal risk of harm to prevent no greater harm, this applies in the case of procreation, so procreation cannot be justified unless you could ask for consent.

When you procreate, you:

Create harm/suffering, i.e someone will now have basic needs that constantly have to be fulfilled, it makes them suffer whereas if we didn’t create someones anymore, there would be no harm/suffering.
Risk that they won’t be able to fulfill their needs, thus suffer even more intensely.
Don’t have a guarantee that they will be alright with the ticket they pull (consent).

Consent isn’t the only factor here, but I could argue that you not even knowing whether or not the person is going to like their circumstances is even worse, factor 3 here just makes it even worse in a sense.

Again, we can also find scenarios where it is possible to ask for consent, but I would think you wouldn’t need to, if you know you can double my life savings in a gamble, you no longer need to ask me for consent because you’re sure about the end result being a win so I’m going to be alright with it, if I know you always want a dick up your ass, I don’t need to ask anymore, I know you’ll be alright with it.

Similarly, we can give examples of everything that will have a negative effect on a child once it’s born, where we cannot adequately obtain consent beforehand either, because the child hasn’t been born yet.

For example, if I’m about to bring a child that’ll be severely disabled and suffer chronic pain every single day into existence, I also cannot ask the child for consent to be born before it is born, so does that make it alright to not abort that child just because I could have not gotten the consent to put it into a condition of chronic excruciating pain?

What if I want to give a fetus cancer?

Let’s say that’s just my fetish, I inject cancer into fetuses and that child will grow up to deal with cancer, I jerk off to that kid dying of cancer. I cannot ask the unborn child for consent to do so, so does that make it alright to proceed and give the child cancer, even though I don’t know whether or not the child will be fine with that later on?

If we go with the standard of reckless procreators in this scenario, i.e ”I don’t need consent if I’m unable to get it” – then it would be perfectly acceptable to birth a child that’ll do nothing but be severely disabled and in chronic pain every day, by this standard, it would be perfectly acceptable to fulfill my fetish of injecting cancer into fetuses, creating cancer cripple kids.

By this standard, we could justify giving a fetus any sort of disease that we want.

Chronic pain, AIDS, cancer, deformities, etc, doesn’t matter. If I could deliberately make a deformed, chronically pained child with cancer, would that be justifiable simply because I was unable to ask the fetus for consent beforehand?

I couldn’t have possibly asked them whether or not they will be fine with this later on, so I did it anyway, because I don’t need to ask for consent if I am unable to do so, that is the standard natalists are putting on the table.

But if they don’t like it, they can just kill themselves! So they have a choice, take it or leave it!

Often the last retort when you point out that creating a child carries a risk of the child being dissatisfied with life. And it’s true, if the child doesn’t like life, they can still kill themselves later on, just like in any other given scenario where I failed to ask for consent though.

If you really don’t like that I lost all your money in a gamble, you can still commit suicide. If you really don’t like that I broke into your home at night to give you surprise anal sex in your sleep, you can still commit suicide. Don’t like that I drunk drove over your legs? Kill yourself faggot, I’ll never stop selfishly taking risks at someone else’s expense.

When someone wants to kill themselves, it’s already too late, you already harmed them, so excusing the imposition based on the fact that the victim can still commit suicide later on isn’t an argument.

Not to mention, many procreating life supporters do not truly support the right to die for everyone including children, although it would, unlike their selfish behavior, not carry risk of future harm to the child, if you’re put to sleep you’re never going to regret it later on after all, you’re dead.

But they don’t like that, they want to force any child that doesn’t agree with life being a gift to pretend that life is a gift, otherwise they will deny the reproduced victims their freedom required to exit from life, it’s a circularly justified conclusion – the person is assumed to be mentally ill because they want to end their life, and it is assumed that they want to end their life because they are mentally ill, it’s circular logic.

So it’s not like these imposers even give their victim the freedom to exit, this is more like I break into this girl’s home and give her surprise anal sex, and if she doesn’t like it, she technically has the right to commit suicide.

The idea that suffering can be good.

An idea often espoused in response to hearing about antinatalism or just in general as a delusional coping mechanism with life is that suffering can be good sometimes, individuals like Jordan Peterson for instance get celebrated for speaking to people with this type of ”tough love” approach, and telling them that life is suffering but it’s all worth it, we shouldn’t just stop the production of suffering-capable organisms.

The idea behind this general idea of suffering supposedly being good sometimes and we shouldn’t just prevent it all from happening by stopping the production of sentient, suffering life (e.g. humans, other mammals, insects, not necessarily fruits, vegetables, fungi) right away is that basically when you suffer, it builds character, strength and resilience that you will need to deal with aforementioned sentient life, or it might be a warning signal of some sort.

The issue with this should be obvious though – negative sensation itself is by definition bad just like water is watery, it is literal badness, a negative sensation/experience of some sort, the fact that sometimes one suffering is required to avoid an even greater suffering doesn’t prove suffering itself to be good. Suffering, badness itself, is bad.

For example, if we have to torture one person to prevent a billion from being tortured just as intensely and there’s nothing else we can do about it, then it’s the lesser of two evils, but the torture itself still feels bad, it’d be better if we could prevent it by cutting up an apple instead. If you say negative sensations can be positive, you might as well say wet is dry or hot is cold, it automatically cannot be anything but contradictory, good suffering is an oxymoron.

Sometimes in life, you have to experience one suffering to avoid an even greater one, but that doesn’t mean that suffering itself is good, that just proves it’s less bad than the more intense form of suffering that otherwise would have happened.

An example would be the painful vaccination in order to avoid a much worse disease you’d otherwise be prone to dying of, but you’re getting it exactly because suffering is bad, because suffering from an illness would be worse than one little needle prick in your arm for a few uncomfortable seconds. If you could snap your fingers in order to obtain the immunity, you would do that instead. The pain itself is bad, the good is the immunity to the illness.

Pain is a warning signal is also something that defenders of suffering will often say, i.e you feel your hand being burned on the stove top so you pull it away.

Again, we can demonstrate again that it’s not the pain itself that is good, but the avoidance of the greater pain, if you could be informed of the danger by something else without the pain, like someone standing next to you who notices it quicker always simply reminding you you’re about to burn yourself before you accidentally leave your hand on the stove top for too long, you would go for that instead of burning yourself to any degree at all.

So we can notice a pattern here in all of these situations where suffering is supposedly good, the person only falsely identifies it as good because it later on results in the prevention of an even greater form of suffering, and if the person could prevent the greater suffering without having to inflict a lesser suffering onto themselves, like snapping their fingers instead of getting an injection, then they would take that less painful option.

Why would you need a warning signal to prevent the worse pain of completely burning your hand on the stove top from happening instead, if pain is not a problem? You wouldn’t, so suffering can have instrumental value to the avoidance of a greater suffering sometimes, that doesn’t prove negative sensation itself to be simultaneously positive.

Suffering makes you stronger they say, but why do you even need to be stronger? Right, only to avoid more suffering associated with being weaker, thus vulnerable to more suffering in the future. If suffering is only ”good” because it helps you to avoid more suffering in the future, then that if anything proves that suffering is bad, because you’re only bearing said suffering to avoid even more of it in the future.

The only reason why you even need more character, strength and resilience built out of suffering in your life to begin with is to later on deal with more potential suffering emerging in your life, to not fall into deep despair upon being faced with adversity and challenges, so it actually doesn’t prove suffering to be good, it proves suffering to be bad.

When your hamster died of cancer, it was ”good for you” because it desensitized you to you later on seeing your mother die of cancer.

But why is it good to be desensitized to your mother dying of cancer?

Only because otherwise you’d suffer even more intensely from witnessing that incident, which is bad, it’s the avoidance of that suffering which is the real good which the suffering of seeing your hamster die has only been instrumental to achieving, not the suffering itself, suffering itself is always bad, just like all water is watery and all shit is shitty.

Negative sensations are indeed not positive. Going with the lesser of two evils doesn’t make it no longer feel bad, just less bad than the other bad. The needle in your arm still produced a negative sensation, it’s just that getting a disease would hurt even more, if you could snap your fingers to grant yourself immunity to illness, you’d probably do that instead.

If someone holds a gun to your head and forces you eat either one bucket of horse shit or ten buckets of horse shit, that doesn’t mean that one bucket of it suddenly tastes good, it just tastes less bad than ten buckets of horse shit.

The fact that suffering sometimes happened prior to a good event doesn’t mean that it is good, if a fire burns down your house in the winter and now you’re sitting in the cold, that doesn’t prove fire to be cold. Now you might be sitting in the cold, but the fire burned your house down exactly because it was hot.

But what about masochists?

Even a masochist ramming a needle into his urethra or a depressed individual cutting their arm isn’t enjoying suffering – they are enjoying the relief of a suffering they are already experiencing, merely using a pain to eliminate a greater pain.

A masochist will experience intensified sexual frustration if he doesn’t inflict pain onto himself, then leading to him becoming more tense and pressurized, thus ultimately more suffering in the long run.

A depressed person will experience intensified depression or other negative states if they don’t cut their arm, so they cut their arm to blend out the worse pain with the pain in their arm, so to speak.

If I told anyone beforehand who has absolutely zero masochistic preferences that I’m a magician and could it make it so that by snapping my fingers, they won’t be able to have an orgasm anymore unless they cut their eyeballs out and rub some chili sauce in their sockets, set their pubic hair on fire and extract every tooth they have with a plier, they wouldn’t want me to do that.

Perhaps they would even use lethal violence to prevent me from doing that, they would rather be able to cum without having to inflict intense suffering onto themselves, because all suffering is bad, just like all water is watery, all shit is shitty, if the masochist could get the exact same relief without the pain involved, they would do so.

Sometimes, some extreme masochists may find themselves in a situation where they have to do these things to avoid sexual frustration, which is a form of suffering, but if you could choose beforehand to get the exact same amount of pleasure from something else, you wouldn’t want to be the one who has to extract all their teeth with a plier in order to cum.

So what is happening here is essentially that as a delusional coping mechanism, when suffering is experienced by people, they observe that it is sometimes the lesser of two evils to bear one suffering over another even worse form of suffering, like the sensation of the needle pricking your arm to avoid a worse illness like small pox.

Then, they fall victim to the delusional conclusion that this now means that even when the suffering in question is not required to avoid a greater suffering, it is still good, because somehow, bad feelings can somehow be good, wet can somehow be dry, hot can somehow be cold.

I get that it’s a delusional coping mechanism which might help some of them to get through the day, but it’s a problem that they even have to get through a day where they require such a coping mechanism to begin with, and it certainly becomes a problem when this coping mechanism is used to justify all sorts of suffering that isn’t required for the avoidance of any greater problem.

War? Whatever, pain is a warning signal.

Factory farming? Whatever, suffering creates great wisdom.

Children dying of starvation in Africa? Pull yourself up by the bootstraps.

You have terminal cancer? Whatever, what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger.

It’s being used as an excuse for not fixing problems.

The problem with this ”suffering is good” approach in the context of reproductive ethics (natalism vs. antinatalism, to procreate or not to procreate) used by pro-natalists and pro-lifers should also be rather obvious – there is no unborn purgatory from which children need to be rescued, no one is spared from a worse fate by being reproduced.

It’s true that once you exist, you sometimes have to tolerate one suffering to avoid an even greater one, but obviously before the child actually exists, the child doesn’t actually exist, so it’s not somehow worse off, suffering in an unborn purgatory, lamenting that their parents that don’t reproduce them are somehow subjecting them to worse suffering in the unborn purgatory than by subjecting them to life on earth.

You’re just creating a pain machine to be motivated by that pain to try to avoid that pain again, there’s nothing efficient or productive about that, the suffering caused by reproduction is not instrumental to avoiding some kind of greater pain that exists in the universe.

So if we use the vaccination example again, the child might need the vaccination to avoid a much more painful illness once it exists, that is true, but obviously, before it existed, it didn’t need to become prone to that illness it now needs to be vaccinated against in the first place, it wasn’t sitting around in the unborn purgatory thinking:

”I wish I became prone to small pox so that I can get a vaccination against it one day! Why do I have to suffer from an urge to obtain an urge to avoid illnesses?”

That the child is prone to illness in the first place is the fault of the parents that produced it, so it would still be perfectly rational for the child with a fear of needles to blame their parents for even creating its proneness to illness in the first place without knowing whether or not the child will be fine with that later on.

This same line of reasoning is then of course even used to justify more child abuse on top of reproduction:

”The child needs to be spanked!”

Why?

”To learn discipline!”

But why does the child need to learn to be disciplined?

”To toughen up and compete with others, get a good job! Hardship builds great character!”

But why do they need to be resilient and successful in life? Right, because otherwise they will fail to acquire resources to fulfill certain needs, wants, desires in their life, they won’t be as fulfilled and satisfied, perhaps not achieve their goals in life due to said lack of discipline.

And who’s to blame for that?

You are to blame for them experiencing those needs, wants, desires they need to fulfill to avoid being tortured by them, because you imposed those needs, wants, desires onto them by reproducing them in the first place, non-existent individuals don’t need, want, desire anything.

It’s like I create a some sort of sadistic game, call it torture and the carrot, where I’m locking you in my basement and tell you that in order to obtain food for further survival, the carrot, you have to saw your left hand off. Then I can justify cutting your little finger off, because that will get you used to pain and desensitize you to later on getting your entire left hand cut off, which you have to do to obtain the carrot or starve to death. See, I’m actually doing you a favor I could say, I’m helping you get closer to the carrot!

See the problem? The problem with this is that I created that problem of you being in need of the carrot in the first place. It’s true that sometimes children have to learn to be disciplined (though highly questionable if beating them will achieve that) to not fail later on in life, but they only have to do that in the sense that if they completely fail at life, they’ll fail to fulfill needs, wants, desires that the procreator instilled into them by not aborting them before they became conscious.

The procreator creates the sick torture and carrot game, sometimes the child now has to endure hardship to get to the carrot, so the procreator justifies giving the child a spanking so it’ll be more desensitized to the more intense hardships and adversities later on in life, but all of this is only a problem if the procreator puts the child into this torture game where you have to bear torture to avoid even worse torture in the first place, which they still haven’t explained why anyone should think that’s a worthwhile endeavor.

If little billy is not created, he doesn’t need to be spanked harder to be more disciplined in order to obtain a good job requiring his emotional resilience and strength later on in life in order to avoid suffering from a low income and being a loser, non-existent little billy does not suffer from an urge to obtain an urge to obtain a job to obtain enough money to fulfill his needs in life from the unborn purgatory in this very moment.

So first you abuse the child by imposing the threat of deprivation on it – need, want, desire, i.e do x or suffer, and then you justify making the child suffer as a necessary evil by disciplining it to desensitize it to later on facing even more intense suffering which will be instrumental to avoiding only some of the suffering you have imposed on it by creating the threat of deprivation in the first place, that seems rather absurd.

Bullying is another great example of this flawed thought process of ”good suffering”.

First you were all skinny and weak, were called a faggot and beaten up in school every day, every girl denied you access to her vagina, then you started working out, taking steroids and beating the shit out of everyone and now you’re drowning in pussy because now you’re much stronger.

Totally proves that negative sensations must be good, right?

Wrong, because again, even if the suffering helped you toughen up which then later on resulted in you staving off the suffering of sexual frustration by finally being tough enough to be sexually selected for by some females, the suffering itself you experienced was still bad, the experience of getting bullied was not enjoyable regardless of whether or not it helped you to avoid an even more unenjoyable experience at some point.

Now you exist, so now you need to stick your peepee in a vagina to avoid even worse suffering from not doing so, but when you didn’t exist, you were not trapped in an unborn purgatory, needing to need to stick your peepee in a vagina to avoid even worse suffering, thinking to yourself ”Man, I wish I had to stick my peepee in vaginas in order to avoid suffering sexual frustration, unfortunately my parents won’t impose sexual needs onto me by reproducing me”.

You need it now, but you didn’t need to need it, your parents put you in need by reproducing you, it’s a net negative, you didn’t want to want it before you wanted it, you didn’t desire to desire it before you desired it.

So ultimately, whilst you already exist where you have to tolerate negative sensations from time to time to avoid an even higher amount of negative sensations in the future, the negative sensation itself is always bad, just like water is always watery and shit is always shitty, and before sentience evolved in this universe, the universe was not somehow worse off without us, starving for sentient organisms to be put inside of it.

There was no pre-existing damage to fix, we are the damage.

The faulty idea that suffering is good is largely used to justify its continued infliction, it might help one as a coping mechanism to get through the day once in a while to believe it’s all happening for some kind of greater good, but the fact that you even need to get through a day to begin and tell yourselves these lies is a negative, a problem – you are in need, you’re in desperation.

And if we don’t start being more honest about the fact that suffering is bad, procreators will keep putting organisms into situations where they have to tell themselves that suffering is good to cope with life.

The reason why you need that coping mechanism in your life to begin with is because procreators keep creating problems, in an emotional state where they themselves are falling victim to the exact same coping mechanism, thinking:

”Suffering is good, might as well breed, if my children suffer horribly and die of cancer, it’s gonna be real good somehow, it’s just gonna toughen them up!”.

Once suffering exists, it can be necessary to bear one suffering to avoid an even greater one, but the existence of suffering itself to begin with is unnecessary in the grand scheme of things, the universe was never somehow worse off without sentient organisms inside it, our suffering serves absolutely no greater good.

Antinatalism, family obligations and parental delusions.

An idea frequently instinctively held by society is that children ought to be grateful to their parents for having created and taken care of them, perhaps are even in debt to them in some way for that.

When you take into account the certain basic facts of life, primarily that:

all the goods in life, like food and water, are only needed once a need, a condition of suffering, like hunger and thirst via the creation of the child is created

that the child really didn’t exist before it actually existed, somehow worse off in an unborn purgatory, writhing in agony over not being alive

what the parents in reality did by creating said child is creating a desire machine that needs constant satisfaction, a deficit, not doing some poor child from the unborn purgatory a favor by finally forcing it into earth-bound existence

this whole viewpoint that children ought to be grateful for being given certain goods by their parents that are entirely at fault for having created the child’s need, want, desire to obtain those goods starts to seem rather absurd to anyone who is halfway rational.

A good analogy to use here is the fireman starting a fire to put it out again in order to play the hero.

You wouldn’t be grateful to a fireman for saving you from a burning house if he’s at fault for having caused the fire in the first place, of course, extinguishing the problem again after deliberately having created it is the very least he can do, virtuous would only be if he extinguished a fire that came about by accident or was set by someone else.

And breeders do a similar crime, they create a problem, a deficit by creating an organism with needs, wants, desires that it is at least at this young stage more or less incapable of fulfilling itself, then fulfill some of its needs, wants, desires and expect gratitude in return for it from their victim despite having caused that very problem of the child experiencing conditions of need, want, desire in the first place because they didn’t abort it before it had the chance to become conscious.

”But I fed them and put a roof over their head, so they should be grateful!”

But I saved the child from drowning in the sea after I deliberately threw it into the sea, so they should be grateful! But I pulled the knife out of that person’s chest after I deliberately stuck the knife into the chest, so they should be grateful!

Yes, after having created their need to ingest food and not freeze to death on the street, in a disabled state where they are incapable of even fulfilling those needs themselves, you fulfilled some of their needs that you yourself created.

So you essentially put someone into a degraded condition, then took care of the problem you intentionally caused, you defecated all over the floor and expect a medal for at best halfway wiping it off again (never fully because the children will experience needs, wants, desires with no failsafe guarantee of fulfillment until they are dead).

Your parents wiping the shit off of your ass after having created you in a disabled state of deprivation where you’re unable to do it yourself was the very least they could do, to let the shit rot on your asshole until you get some kind of disease would have just been worse than it already was to create someone in said state of disability and deprivation.

It would be like the fireman instead just letting the house he deliberately set on fire burn into the ground, so what do these narcissistic breeders expect, the nobel prize for altruism for not having committed an extra horrific violation like first creating a hungry child and then letting it starve to death on the streets afterwards?

”Some children don’t have parents that care for them so be more grateful!”

Some firefighters that set people’s houses on fire in order to play the hero by coming to the rescue and extinguishing it again afterwards, don’t actually even extinguish the fires that they deliberately set again, and just let the whole thing burn into the ground instead. I could have done that as well, ingrate, you should be thanking me that after I set your house on fire deliberately, I saved you from burning to death in it, I’m a true hero and wish to be acknowledged as such.

Children aren’t in debt to their parents, it’s the exact other way around, they have created the child in need of care, it didn’t create itself in that state and then offered the parents to sign a contract promising it will later on compensate them for taking care of the problem, so to brag about having taken care of it is essentially just like the fireman bragging about having extinguished the fire he deliberately created.

Parental arguments to instill obedience into their children in general are often times completely non-sensical, kind of highlighting the mentality of many procreators in fact and how they justify themselves, by might makes right, I can so I will, I’ll impose life and you have to take it in the ass.

”You live with me and I take care of you, so you have to do what I say, as long as you live in my house you have to abide by my rules!”

The parents again are at fault for the child living in their house due to age related inability to move out, which they are at fault for because they have created it with the knowledge that this stage of life will exist, and because they and the rest of parents probably also made a law that says the child can’t move out until a certain age, so what the parents/slave owners making this argument are essentially saying is that because they forced someone to be dependent on them, the slave should now do as they say.

By this argument, if I abduct you and lock you into my basement, you should be obligated to suck my cock, because you live in my basement that I have forced you to live in, from which you have little to no chance of escaping successfully and I’m taking care of you.

”If you don’t like my rules, 5 year old, then why don’t you move out? Oh, too bad, you can’t, so you have to do what I say!”

What kind of sadistic fascist gets off on playing this type of game, what kind of reasonably sensible and intellectually honest individual would think this is a good game to play?

The all known, apathetic towards the child’s suffering:

‘Life is not fair”

Also a great insight. Life is not fair, I created life, so basically all I’m saying is that I am unfair, I create unfair circumstances.

Sorry that you don’t always get what you want, I intentionally forced you into this state of constant wanting and needing without guarantee of fulfillment because I am entirely unfair, just in case this might be helpful information to you at some point. It’s life, not me, although I created it.

It always tends to be said with this subliminal tone as if it should just be obvious to the child, as if the child supposedly has agreed to life’s unfairness in some way, so then it would be reasonable to remind the child that this is what they signed up for, as if they are repeating the guidelines of a game that the child consented to by signing a contract before being born, and now that child is being irresponsible by not following the contract, so the procreators have to remind the child of the rules, that’s the risk the child took, now they have to deal with life being unfair, should’ve thought about that before you came out of my vagina.

When in reality though, of course no one ever agrees to be made conscious, because they’re not conscious before they become conscious, so again, it’s the procreators deciding to awaken the dead into a world that they may not like, so saying ”well, that’s just life, deal with it” in that context is pretty much like randomly shoving dog shit into someone’s face and then arrogantly saying ”well, that’s just dog shit, deal with it”, as if your victim knew what was coming for them and signed up for this treatment in some way.

”But kids have to learn that life is unfair and that they can’t always get what they want because life’s hard and they gotta deal with that when they grow up, little billy has to learn he can’t get the new toy so that then later on he won’t snap and rape a bitch when she refuses to let him stick his peepee in her pussy.”

So children have to learn to become desensitized to suffering, in order to avoid an even bigger amount of suffering that will face them later on, knowing how to deal with life’s suffering.

But why are they in a situation where they even have to try to avoid this bigger amount of suffering later on in the first place? A good question to ask.

Right, because you forced them into existence, you didn’t abort him before he became conscious.

And was forcing the child into existence necessary in order to help them avoid a worse form of suffering, like it is necessary once they exist and have to learn that life is unfair in order to avoid more frustration with this fundamental unfairness later on?

No, because as far as I know, we have absolutely zero evidence for the existence of an unborn purgatory in which children that are not brought into earthly bound existence are writhing in agony over not being brought into earthly bound existence, the suffering caused by procreation is not instrumental to preventing a worse harm from befalling the child.

It is only instrumental to solving some suffering in the parents, erasing one of their deficits, i.e their desire to have the child, so in the process of getting rid of that one deficit, they create a whole lifetime of deficits in an effort to fix one of their deficits, so it’s necessary for the child to learn to deal with the fact that life is unfair in the same way it’s necessary for you to learn how to deal with poverty because I just can’t give up gambling with your money, woe is me.